Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: There were four tribal members who were picked up by ICE in a community called Little Earth right here in Minneapolis St. Paul. They claim that they're not classifying them by their nationality, which tribal members are also citizens of the United States. Since 1924, you know, there's nobody more American than American Indians. They came all the way here to retrieve their tribal members who were captured by ICE and we failed in that mission today, but it will continue.
Stay vigilant and stay assertive, stay constructive.
We're in unprecedented times. The way that I see it.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: Welcome to outside issues with Audrey and Patrick.
When Renee Goode was killed, it was on January 7th, so that. That would be almost two weeks ago. It was on a Wednesday.
And, like, I'm looking at my calendar now just because I'm trying to piece it together, like, what was I in the middle of when that happened? Because it's probably for the best that, like, my usual digest of political media has been, like, more intermittent now instead of constant.
[00:01:16] Speaker C: I know, because my whole weeks are always blurs because of my.
My job.
But I saw, like, just the headline and then I saw the video, and I was like, holy. And after that, ever since then, I feel like everything's been kind of futile. I was bracing myself or, you know, the administration and everybody to be like, oh, she tried to run over him with her. With her car, you know, because usually police have immunity to that kind of shooting people and whatnot. So my kind of. My first. First thought was like, shit. Like, here we go again. We're going to be blaming the victim. I think this is a little bit different than what I'm used to. This is an emergency.
This is a national emergency. I know that Bob Ferguson here in Washington has declared a state of emergency.
There have been raids in the town sort of next to me, which is pretty affluent. It's pure brutality. And my first thought when I knew that she was, like, a white woman, this idea of ultimate privilege that I have, which I do have a lot of privilege as a white person, Somebody coming from an affluent area growing up. Now it's everybody's head on the chopping block. I don't know. It's hard to explain as a woman. You know the line that Jonathan Ross said after he shot her is, fucking bitch. And, like, every single woman who's been in a relationship with an abuser has heard that.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I figure, I mean, you've dealt with that. Like, you've had men say that to you.
[00:02:58] Speaker C: Mm. Yeah. Fucking bitch. Especially even at the most, you Know, innocuous things like, hey, you know, can I get your number? And I said, oh, you know, I'm taken. Oh, you're.
Well, it's not surprising to me. It's. But it's.
This was particularly triggering.
The more and more that goes on with Trump's Gestapo, the more and more scared I am feeling.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I. I heard an interesting psychoanalysis of this guy, Jonathan Ross, and then, you know, the Ice Gestapo is that their primary, their ultimate targets are really white women, or that is, like, the object of their resentment. And it's a kind of, like, resentment because white women aren't going with the program and aren't, you know, conferring the appropriate respect, you know, to. To them in uniform. And, you know, I think that it's like there's something that's. There's such a. Like a ripe target, you know, this lesbian couple sitting in their car not. Not deferring immediately, you know, to these hogs.
[00:04:06] Speaker C: As a woman, you can't show. I want to. I don't want to say sass, but stand. Standing your ground effectively against an A man like that.
You can't.
[00:04:19] Speaker B: You're fucked either way, you know, because if you. If you meet that aggression with equal aggression, something terrible will happen. But if you're just diminutive and, you know, just kind of passive about it, same goes, right?
[00:04:34] Speaker C: The misogyny is real. Men like that don't like to be challenged.
Not even challenged, just spoken to in a way that's not completely subservient. We can't show aggression. There's. There's nothing. There's. There's not. And we're. We've been told since we were born, like, you have to be, like, the sweet girl. You have to play nice. You have to be ladylike, do your, you know, have your manners. It's just, like, exhausting. And then when you're faced with a man who's threatening you, you have to shrink as that trauma response. And watching the video, it sounded like she wasn't really in a trauma response.
She was in a. Just a calm sort of, hey, dude, I'm not mad at you.
Like, right.
[00:05:25] Speaker B: I. I think that they, you know, in terms of, like, the.
The narrative and the way that the Trump administration has tried to frame this and the conservative media constellation around him is that this was like some pointed standoff that Renee Goode lost, whereas it was much more a case of her trying to get through an intersection and being confused at conflicting instructions, being screamed at her by heavily armed, scary, Guys that you know and that this guy murdered her just out of his personal frustration and hatred and resentment. You know, it wasn't, she wasn't even standing off against him. She was trying to get the out of the way.
[00:06:06] Speaker C: And as a woman, if there's a man trying to get into your car like that age of the other agent was you get the out because that, that's so dangerous. The, the, the amount of fear that I would probably experience if some I ICE agent was trying to open my car door, I would have done this. I mean depending on, I guess whatever my brain wants me to do, either fight, flight or freeze, I probably would have fled and the same thing would have happened. Like what am I supposed to do? Fight and then get shot too? Am I supposed to freeze and then get shot too? The simple truth of walking down a street and knowing that a man is behind you, it doesn't matter who he is, you know, it's always looking back, looking back. I, I've had abusive people try to open my car door trying to get at me.
I don't remember what I did. I must have frozen.
But if I was trying to flee, I would have made a three point turn too.
That's how cars work. We need to start thinking about the misogyny of these attacks. What I've been fighting for for a very long time and very passionate about is like you know, the killing of bipoc people by just regular police.
Now I feel like my view on the regular police is like gone a little bit higher.
Which is. Who would have thunk it?
[00:07:40] Speaker B: Your opinion of police that are more constrained, you know, by legal apparatus that does exist as opposed to these completely unaccountable murder lynch mobs that are flooding into blue cities now?
Yeah, income by contrast, the stand up guys.
[00:07:59] Speaker C: I just couldn't believe it. I saw a video where there was a like a city police officer, I think it was, I don't much, it might have been in Texas but he was following the agent and he's like, you're gonna be under a rest if you don't get the hell away from us.
And then like, you know, the ICE agent goes away and the cops like wannabe. And I was like, yeah, wannabe.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean one hopes that, you know, more and more local police are answering the call and you know, like I think that what a lot of us are in a panic about is agents of the state going to intervene and protect the citizens from ICE or are the citizens going to need to take matters into their own hands? And I think that like, for the longevity of, you know, polite society, I think we're hoping that it can be this, the state muscle that can step in and protect people. But for as long as that doesn't happen, I think that the only, the Trump administration just has one speed, which is to escalate. And you know, I, I just feel like even like, well meaning liberal governors like Tim Walls, it's in their essence to want to calm things down and to want to de escalate and to want to try and to do things like send a letter to the President pleading for him to turn down the temperature. Remember when we had Jake on the show and he was talking about the paradox of tolerance as that when only one side in a conflict is attempting to de escalate and then the other side is just flooded, flooring the gas. No, it's the ratchet's only going one way. At some point there will need to be a confrontation and this is where we are. Like, I, it's messing with my head. Like, I just don't understand these people. I don't understand the violence of Trump.
Don't they get, don't they get it that there's this bipartisan agreement, Democrat and Republican at the top, to just fleece the American people and to have a really nice life for themselves. To have photo ops in the Rose Garden and you get to have ceremonies where you put medals on Jon Voight and all of your idiot, you know, like friends or, you know. But both sides get to flatter themselves. And, you know, Congress and the Senate move very slowly. People die and people lose their healthcare and get crushed underfoot. But there's like a level of stability that, you know, is maintained and that people like you and me criticize constantly because we hate it and we see the human cost. But this urge by MAGA and my buddy reminded me of how integral tall this Stephen Miller is. What we're seeing now with ice in these cities is so much of like a Stephen Miller straight up neo Nazi design. Like, and I think trumpets.
Number one, he's kind of into it and number two, he loves to delegate. And so I think that, yeah, this war on the American people by an American president is just something that like, we're all racing to catch up with because it's so like, antithetical to the way we see the world and the way that we think government, what its essential function should be and how do we fight it. It's corrosive in every way.
The idea of meeting out combat against federal agents on the street of these cities where people live, the chapels guys have been calling Minneapolis the, the Midwest bank, you know, now it's this, it's, it's this war zone, you know, where, like, where there's. They're sending troops in to hurt and to terrorize the citizens. And, you know, you had asked, you sent me this text, and I only got to it earlier this morning. I figured we could talk about it. But you were asking Trump going hard in with ICE in California, then in Minnesota, states of Kamala and Walls, if there's anything to that, if there's a. If there's an element of his vindictiveness that has to do with him allocating so many assets here. And I think. Yeah, that you're absolutely right. I mean, I think that's part of it. It's all part of it. I mean, I think that, like, Trump's.
One of his, like, primary operating modes is vindictiveness and revenge and putting people in their place who, you know, said he had small hands.
[00:12:22] Speaker C: Trump and, you know, Kristi Noem, every official that's endorsing this, every single ICE agent is an abuser because abusers want power and control.
That's it. They don't want, they don't want material things. They don't.
They don't want, you know, to make the neighborhood safe. They want power and control because of whatever the. Has happened in their lives, you know, that likely wasn't their fault.
If we're going way back and getting real clinical here with, like, childhood trauma, but there are plenty of people who are all abusers using this power and control dynamic. And there's. I'll have to show you the, the wheel of violence at some point, because it. In the very middle, there's different types of abuse. There's financial abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, child abuse. And in the middle of it, it's all power, control. And Trump has been.
I'm going to go ahead and say it, undiagnosed person with narcissistic personality disorder.
They all crave power and control.
So all these agents I have, I mean, I have yet to see anybody film an agent that's got something short of an attitude that doesn't radiate power and control. I need to have. I need to have. Somebody needs to fear me.
Fear. Being in a spot and a position of fear, trying to inflict fear is something that I think a lot of abusers and sometimes regular people who have gone through shit, they want that because they were scared as little people and Like I said, I don't want to get too clinical here, but please.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I could use the help because, yeah, it's really fucked up. And you know, you think about these, these people like Noam and Miller and Trump and Vance, we haven't even mentioned him yet. They're in the upper reaches of power, global power, and how much more control could they want? How much more would it take for them to feel okay with themselves and the. And the answer has to be that their need is bottomless.
[00:14:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: And like. Yeah. And totalizing. Because I feel like that's what I'm getting at is that like, even for somebody who's been. I think of myself as pretty politically aware the last 10 years, this shocks even me just the, you know, the extent of the brutality and why they just keep push, push, push, pushing after, like they, they've, they've won every contest. You know, they, they've got all three branches that it doesn't seem to be enough. And there is some chatter that, and, you know, I'm sure there's something to it about how they want to basically make, make midterm elections and presidential elections really difficult to organize because of the ch, the cities and, you know, they get to implement the Insurrection act. And this is part of some like, five dimensional chess game that they're playing basically to, you know, to keep Trump in power until he's dead. But like, I feel like as much as that's probably true, it's. They just love this process, you know. You know, even, even beyond the outcome, I think just to deploy ICE in this way is richly satisfying to them. And that scares me because I'm fortunate enough to not have like, people like that in my life. People with, with those violent urges or, you know, the stomach, you know, the twistedness to carry, to follow those through.
[00:16:18] Speaker C: You're either labeled a rioter or a peaceful protester.
We already know that ICE is going after peaceful, peaceful protesters no matter what. But what's that, that, that medium between civil disobedience, like good trouble, as John Lewis, as John Lewis would say, good trouble versus going too far and for forfeiting our need for pacifism and for peace, especially those of us who have gone through shit and found peace, like in recovery and we're having to visit that again. Personally, I have, like, I'll just go ahead and say it like, I want to buy a gun. I'm scared. I. A white woman got shot in the head because she said, I'm not mad at you, dude.
And that's How I interact with police. I've been pulled over one time here in Washington, and because I worked with the LAPD for a couple of years, and I know how police.
I just know police, I guess, just from experience. And whenever this. This cop pulled me over, he's like, you know, you were going over the speed limit. And my kind of.
I use the word dude. I was like, sorry, dude, we'll do it again.
Like, just like that. Like, kind of sarcastic, dry.
If that was a nice agent, I could have gotten shot. What am I going to do to protect myself from getting murdered?
And I, like, what. What keeps swirling around. Is this guilt having to do with, you know, going back to, you know, 2012, thinking about the Sandy Hook shooting and all of the. All of the legislation that was trying to be passed in the aftermath of that, and nothing got passed, obviously, because of the gun lobbyists.
But I think that we're getting to a point where the Second amendment is possibly going to be serving its second purpose, you know, the right to bear arms or to stand up against a tyrannical government. And for me, personally, I don't want to get killed, and I. I can't. I can't even. It's so mindboggling to me that I'm like, get me a gun. Because, I don't know.
[00:18:46] Speaker B: I think that video. I'm sure you watched it, a lot of people did, of the door dash, the door dasher hiding in the woman's house and. And ICE pestering them at the front door. And this. Both of these poor women. But, like, having to.
She has to decide whether she's gonna give this woman over to ice. And thank God, ultimately they were able to her. And then the neighbors that had started to kind of like, crowd around the property were able to repel ICE and, you know, like, live to fight another day. But, like. Yeah, but I mean, I. I had this conversation with a girlfriend about, what do you do in that situation? What if you've got to choose between, you know, your family with you at home and.
And, you know, an immigrant being hunted by ICE who, you know, comes to you looking for safe quarter? Like, the parallels between this and Nazi Germany couldn't be more explicit.
Yeah, I mean, you know, there's no way. I don't know what I would do in that situation. I mean, I would hope that I had the courage to tell them to go themselves, but the stakes, their life or death stakes. Now it's happening right up close, I.
[00:19:59] Speaker C: Think a point about de. Escalation and escalation from a clinical standpoint, we all, most of us, we don't have to, but it's more for inpatient settings. Deescalization of like a fight or some violent incident, like between patients, or you have a client who is becoming increasingly aggressive towards you. We're taught specific de escalation techniques which obviously have to do with words and comfort and validation for the individual.
But this does.
De escalation does not exist. Unless I'm speechless.
The de escalation might have. Might involve both sides inciting violence.
And from a clinical standpoint, that goes against everything I've ever learned or been trained in, or who I am in general, especially with, you know, my ancestral background of being Quakers and all pacifists.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: I love your Quaker ancestors watching over you always.
[00:21:11] Speaker C: I'm guessing they're pretty pissed. They're thinking, oh, here come the Puritans trying to force on everybody. And I don't know if the Puritans tried to kidnap people, but same, same shit.
What does de escalation at this point look like? Is it.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Well, what it looks. I mean, I think that what it looks like is some kind of cooperative effort, state by state, you know, or if there was. Yes, if there was something that the state governments were able to do in terms of, you know, declaring. Some have declared a state of emergency. But, like, in terms of, like, they have the ability, as far as I understand it, to call the National Guard and deploy National Guard troops against ice. This. This would be a.
A definite escalation. And, you know, they'd have to ask themselves, well, who's going to be the first ones to blink here? I think, but basically, yeah, like what, What a de escalation would look like at this point is to meet force with force and to intervene on behalf of the citizens. And for the government to do that for. Not for vigilantes to do that, but for the government to do that, which would require a major bending, if not outright breaking, you know, the rules or at the very least, like, norms and typical standard operating procedure and basically, yeah, like, making it a fight, but doing it, you know, in an organized way and doing it in daylight and making. And, you know, using media to basically, like, say, this is what we're doing and why.
So that if the President decides to go against that, the world will see it for what it is. Abolishing ICE is finding outright plurality support according to some polls.
So the push to expand funding or restrict funding for ice. Who is behind abolishing or not against abolishing ice?
John Fetterman From Pennsylvania, Ruben Gallagher from Arizona, Chris Murphy from Connecticut, Democratic Party leaders Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, Cory Booker from New Jersey. And support is coming from the usual suspects from aoc, from Ilhan Omar, from the handful of progressives who, you know, see no issue with calling a spade a spade. You know, there's this article I read by Ed Inger Mentem. It's called this isn't 2020. And he does a great job of parsing the difference between the calls to abolish or defund police that came out of the George Floyd protests in 2020, which failed across the board, and the calls to abolish ICE today, which. It's a very similar context because Renee Goode was murdered less than a mile away, actually in Minneapolis from where George Floyd was murdered. So it's like ear parallels, you know, it's like we're revisiting a lot of the same territory. But he writes in this article, ICE doesn't have strong bonds with any community.
It's run by a historically unpopular president, not locally known municipal politicians. It doesn't provide any public services by wasting your money to harass current construction workers. And creating short term short. And creating short form social media content for the hyper engaged MAGA base opposing the organization isn't genuinely radical in the way that calls to defund or abolish the police actually were. It's a basic conclusion anyone opposed to Trump will come to as long as he uses them as a personal secret police. So I feel like what he's articulating here is why abolishing ISIS is popular. And it's only going to gain popularity for as long as it's associated with the regime. And as for as long as there's no positive outcome associated with it if you aren't, you know, if you aren't like an ideologically motivated race warrior on the right, which minority of people are, thank God, you know, a lot of squishy racists in America. But maybe they're not that squishy when it comes to their own cities, you know?
[00:25:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: Being invaded by paramilitary squads and masks.
[00:25:24] Speaker C: There's also something to be said about the Epstein files. I saw a brief interview with the QAnon Shaman.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: I miss that guy.
[00:25:31] Speaker C: The interviewer asked him, do you still support Trump? Guys like, no, he's a pedophile.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: And I was like, he's hung up his. He sung up his horns. Yeah, traded it for the college shirt.
[00:25:46] Speaker C: I lost Trump at grab him by the pussy.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's so funny. I don't think I've ever. I mean, you know, I'm. I'm a libtard. I have been for as long as I've been alive. But.
So any Republican is going to have an uphill, a nearly vertical uphill battle with me. But, I mean, it would be hard. I mean, that ride down the escalator. I mean, his. In his, in his announcement for his candidacy. Right. It was, you know, let's build a wall around America and keep the rapists out. Like, that's, That's a.
[00:26:15] Speaker C: You know, that was the radical thing at the time.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, he lost me when I was in the womb, I.
[00:26:22] Speaker C: Think I keep hearing. I keep running across sound bites of ICE agents come up to a neighborhood.
Everybody, all the neighbors are like, shut your door. Get inside. Shut your door. They're here.
Whistles going off. I think I posted on Facebook that that's the most disturbing thing for me is the people blowing whistles.
Like a nuclear siren.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I'll add the image. I hear that there's cars strewn throughout Minneapolis that are abandoned with the seatbelts cut of people who were stopped and abducted from their vehicles. And it's like a war zone.
And when that term war zone is deployed in the mainstream media, usually it's meant to kind of as like a condemnation of resistance to state violence.
You know, it's, It's, It's a war zone if you fight back. It's not a war zone if the, the damage is on behalf of agents of the state. But I mean, despite the best efforts of mainstream media trying to normalize ice's behavior, I think people can see it for what it is. And it's, you know, the chaos is coming from. It's the calls coming from inside the House.
[00:27:32] Speaker C: I was like, yo, like Project 2025 is going to happen. There's going to be National Guards involved in blue states. We have to throw them off somehow. There's more of us than them.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: What cruelty. You know, attacking people for the crime of their plurality, harboring their neighbors. Yeah. The story of America is melting pot and then the racial resentment that goes along with that.
[00:27:58] Speaker C: I hope that all of that administration end up in a melting pot and they get turned into fondue. Hot lava, hot lava floors. Lava.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: I was just going to say January 30, the government could be facing a shutdown. There's a subcommittee Senator Katie Britt is leading, the appropriation subcommittee on Homeland Security is fighting tooth and nail to expand ICE's reach. The Democratic wall is holding firm though. Senator Patty Murray from Washington is. Are you familiar with her?
Yeah, yeah. She's the top Democrat on the full Appropriations Committee. So they do not want an increase in ICE funding, if you can believe it. Kristi Noem and, you know, others in the Trump administration, they want to expand ICE's funding even further.
[00:28:44] Speaker C: What is government?
[00:28:46] Speaker B: We've had a couple other instances like this in the first year of Trump too, where Democrats have the opportunity to stop the government, slow the Trump administration down and bring them to the table for concessions. And I think that, you know, at least on a legislative level, this is something that can be done to, you know, advocate for people on a leadership level anyway, on a personal level. Stay in touch, Stay in touch with your neighbors and don't give an inch. As strong as your stomach is, just hold firm. And even if you're scared, try to be somebody else's strength.
[00:29:19] Speaker C: I heard somebody give a good point about checking on your neighbors. If you see a neighbor's car parked in the same place, just gathering dust, if you see their mail being, being stuffed in the mailbox up to the brim, what happened? Something could have happened.
Can't lie. I'm scared.
[00:29:40] Speaker B: I know we say this every week, but, you know, we need, we need to get Marissa back on to talk about some legal pathways that we can follow to try and look out for people. I'm sure she's got her hands full with all this.
[00:29:54] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, she's in Mexico currently. She has two residences as far as I know. So she's currently out of the country.
And back In December of 2024, I remember, remember her telling me that she was scared that she was going to get deported because of just her, her, the nature of her work, obviously, and her outright opposition to Trump's administration, immigration policies. And she's like, I'm legit scared that I'm going to be sent back to Mexico. I've been here since I was 2 years old. And you know, I always think of Marissa. I wish Marissa could run for president, abolish the two party system and let's just have Audrey and Patrick.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm down with that.
Nine. You don't understand it. We are only taking the bad Jews. Yeah, the bad Jews. The bad Yuden, not the good Odin. Some of the Odin were doing usury and we are taking them. Not the bad ones or not the good ones. Those the bad ones. I can't, I can't speak for everyone.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Else in the ss, but mine unit is only taking the bad Jews.
[00:31:17] Speaker B: And not the good ones.
